Dan Fitzpatrick | "Education is probably more valuable as a childcare system"

[00:00:05] What's up everyone, you're listening to the Digitize Fully Charged Podcast. I'm your host Pam Currie. I'm joined as always by my colleague Niall Ridgway.

[00:00:14] And today's conversation is with Mr. AI Educator Dan Fitzpatrick. We're super excited to have Dan join us today. He's a busy chap. He's been traveling all over the world talking about AI.

[00:00:29] And this one is a bit of a departure from our usual podcast format where we just talk, have a flowing conversation with Dan really about AI, about the future of education, about what education might look like if we were to get a bunch of people in a room and rethink it.

[00:00:46] Let's dive in.

[00:00:50] Dan, lovely to see you today. Thank you so much for joining us.

[00:00:55] I would attempt to give an introduction to you. I think probably the best thing is for you to just tell us a bit about who you are, what your story is.

[00:01:05] And I mean, as far as we know, you are literally Mr. AI in education right now. Seems to me like you've been everywhere for the last 12 months.

[00:01:16] Yeah, tell us about yourself.

[00:01:18] Yeah, so my name is Dan. I am from the northeast of England, as you might be able to tell from my accent. So I'm from Newcastle.

[00:01:25] I trained as a high school teacher. So I was a secondary school teacher, trained in Manchester in England and then moved back up home to Newcastle.

[00:01:34] Always kind of been interested in digital technologies, even my life before as a teacher.

[00:01:41] I remember doing an MA like probably 15 years ago now. And my professor talking about this book called The Feed.

[00:01:50] And I remember going away and reading it. It was all about kind of this dystopian future where when babies were born,

[00:01:57] like a computer chip was put in their head and that's how they interacted with the world.

[00:02:02] And it almost caused like an augmented reality within their heads.

[00:02:06] I remember just being fascinated by this concept. Really interesting now, 15 years later,

[00:02:11] and we've got technology like Neuralink being developed and so on.

[00:02:17] So, yeah, so kind of the AI concept and everything, I was really, really fascinated in.

[00:02:22] And educational technology, I guess, like yourselves as well.

[00:02:24] So when I kind of that was my main priority, really, throughout all of my career in the classroom was to help me utilize technology to help enhance learning.

[00:02:35] And I really believed that it could. So that was kind of my starting point, really.

[00:02:42] And then I worked with a few great people to kind of get things off the ground in the schools I was in.

[00:02:49] And I started a podcast on the side. So I started a podcast called EduFuturists, which is still going.

[00:02:54] I'm not part of it anymore. But Ben and Steve are still going forward with that and doing amazing work with it.

[00:03:02] And I suppose anything like, I don't know how you guys feel, but when you start going down the route of educational technology,

[00:03:08] it doesn't take you long before you start exploring kind of the future of education as well.

[00:03:13] What education might look like in a few years time and how do we how do we drive that change?

[00:03:18] So, yeah, kind of quickly went from ed tech to the future of education.

[00:03:24] And we kind of saw it as well. I saw it as every Thursday night.

[00:03:27] It was my opportunity to speak to somebody from around the world who was actually doing something different.

[00:03:33] And I think we were both kind of in this English education system, which is very traditional, is very, very inward looking.

[00:03:45] And I don't think many people around us could really envision.

[00:03:50] And I think it was really difficult for myself as well to envision that there could be other ways of doing it, better ways of doing it.

[00:03:56] So it was a great opportunity. And I'm sure you guys will know as well that once you start a podcast,

[00:04:02] it's kind of a write your own check to speak to whoever you want to speak to around the world.

[00:04:08] Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, we're having this conversation right now.

[00:04:11] Yeah, I kind of pictured just dropping you a wee message prior to starting up the podcast.

[00:04:17] So, yeah, it's a chance for us to chat and catch up and meet lots of amazing people.

[00:04:23] Yeah, it is. It's great. And now, like being on the other side of it, just to spend like an hour or so just delving into a topic in really in a deep way.

[00:04:35] Like I can't talk like this with my fiancée, Julia, because she would leave me, I think, if I just had these conversations every day with her.

[00:04:48] But a lot of my work is on a stage talking at people in a certain respect.

[00:04:55] So to be afforded these opportunities for kind of a deep dive hour is really beneficial.

[00:05:02] And I think it's really needed, I think, to try just to think.

[00:05:07] I think sometimes just being given the space and whoever's listening to this as well to just be given the space to switch off from other things for a bit of time and think about what's possible, how we might be involved with that and so on.

[00:05:20] So, yeah, so that's kind of how it started.

[00:05:23] And then went through leadership in secondary school and then moved into further education, worked on digital strategy and innovation for a large group of colleges in the north east of England.

[00:05:36] And, yeah, it was there really that I started coming across AI again, kind of pre-ChatGPT, looking at early language models, what the future could be around these, started experimenting with some of them.

[00:05:51] And then ChatGPT hit and kind of the world started changing fast.

[00:05:56] And, yeah, I kind of just saw myself as I just wanted to spread some good news about this.

[00:06:02] I think back in late November 2022, I remember playing around with it, going on social media.

[00:06:09] I think like X or Twitter as it was, was kind of my main platform then.

[00:06:13] Yeah.

[00:06:14] Just not seeing really anyone in education talking about it.

[00:06:17] Talking about it.

[00:06:18] Yeah, so I just started to, I remember I think I was at my mum's house and I just pressed screen record on my iPhone and just went onto the, I mean there wasn't an app there,

[00:06:28] and just went onto my browser on my phone and did something, something basic, recorded, stuck it on Twitter.

[00:06:34] And then, yeah, kind of things went from there really.

[00:06:37] Do you still remember having that first like conversation with like ChatGPT?

[00:06:42] It would have been, wouldn't it?

[00:06:43] I mean, it was for all of us.

[00:06:45] Yeah.

[00:06:45] And being like, this is way better than I imagined it would be.

[00:06:49] You know, like, this is incredible.

[00:06:53] Yeah.

[00:06:54] I think, I think the first, I still remember the first question I asked, which was, what does the future of education look like?

[00:07:00] Big question.

[00:07:02] Yeah.

[00:07:02] Yeah.

[00:07:04] And then, yeah, then I remember just showing it, I think it was at my mum's house and I remember just showing it to my family and going, have you seen this?

[00:07:11] Have you seen what this can do?

[00:07:13] And then playing around with it for a while.

[00:07:15] Yeah.

[00:07:16] Yeah.

[00:07:16] It's weird.

[00:07:19] It's really fast.

[00:07:20] I don't know how you find it as well.

[00:07:20] It's really strange how fast we just take things as normal.

[00:07:25] Yeah.

[00:07:25] So like, I think I remember doing, I think that first video I posted online was really like looking back so basic, like write a lesson plan.

[00:07:33] But it was mind blown.

[00:07:34] Like this time, yeah, it was absolutely mind blown.

[00:07:37] Now you show someone that example and they would just groan and be like, yeah, come on, we know that.

[00:07:41] Done that now.

[00:07:42] Yeah.

[00:07:42] Yeah.

[00:07:43] It's amazing how fast things do move and we just, like a new bit of technology blows our mind one day and then the next day we're like, okay.

[00:07:56] Yeah.

[00:07:56] Yeah.

[00:07:57] It's quite fascinating.

[00:07:58] Like, I don't know about your experience, but we've found kind of, not resistance always, but maybe a lack of enthusiasm for what it is we're trying to show people.

[00:08:09] and you know like

[00:08:11] it's probably because you go into a school

[00:08:13] at the end of a day and everyone's

[00:08:15] kind of tired from having taught

[00:08:17] children all day and you know

[00:08:19] you don't always get that

[00:08:21] reception but for me with

[00:08:23] AI there's something

[00:08:25] about it that just seems

[00:08:27] to give people those wow moments

[00:08:29] Yeah I think it's interesting

[00:08:31] because I think I know what you mean about

[00:08:33] edtech that

[00:08:35] but I think there's a wider issue

[00:08:37] and I think it's down to the

[00:08:39] systems that we kind of work and

[00:08:41] play in really and that

[00:08:43] if you've got let's say a group of

[00:08:45] lecturers or teachers who

[00:08:48] are doing the job

[00:08:49] they're doing it right, they're getting decent

[00:08:51] grades every year

[00:08:54] they're good rounded

[00:08:55] teachers doing the job, you come

[00:08:57] along and go look at this thing

[00:09:00] it's going to help you do

[00:09:01] your job then I think

[00:09:03] subliminally it's

[00:09:05] subconsciously it's like well I'm already doing my job

[00:09:07] job like yeah and it's like taking up most of my time so actually just something else that's going to help me do my job when I'm already doing my job doesn't necessarily make sense

[00:09:17] yes and I think I think I've been doing a lot for my new book I've been looking at a lot of the business world and how the business world moves fast yes and why education doesn't seem to and I think it comes down to competition

[00:09:34] like

[00:09:35] if

[00:09:36] like business has to move fast because

[00:09:38] there's going to be somebody else who comes

[00:09:40] and does it better than them

[00:09:41] yeah

[00:09:42] continuously and then you partner that with a brand new technology

[00:09:46] and someone else who wants to take that technology

[00:09:48] and do better than them then

[00:09:50] they've got no choice but to evolve

[00:09:52] or die really

[00:09:53] the editing system has never really been in that position

[00:09:56] and therefore

[00:09:58] there's no real incentive

[00:10:00] to

[00:10:01] to innovate in a meaningful way

[00:10:04] so

[00:10:06] I personally I made the argument in my new book as well

[00:10:08] I think that

[00:10:09] that

[00:10:10] we

[00:10:10] we can't keep education safe from that anymore

[00:10:12] I think

[00:10:13] I think we're entering a time now where

[00:10:15] where we're gonna get viable

[00:10:19] competition to education

[00:10:20] that's

[00:10:21] very different to what we've seen

[00:10:22] and we're starting to see that

[00:10:23] I mean the fastest grown school in the UK at the minute is an online school

[00:10:27] and I think that's just the start of what type of different offerings we're gonna see from AI that can help people

[00:10:38] and yeah and maybe like because we're talking about like systemic change here aren't we like we're talking about like a seismic shift

[00:10:47] it's not gonna happen unless the products lead the way is it like it's like that kind of that change isn't probably gonna come from governments

[00:10:56] although

[00:10:58] Greece

[00:10:59] I was listening to your

[00:11:01] um

[00:11:02] Spotify podcast

[00:11:04] oh yes

[00:11:04] AI

[00:11:05] what's it called

[00:11:06] AI

[00:11:07] AI in Education Daily

[00:11:08] AI in Education Daily

[00:11:10] Daily that's right

[00:11:11] and you were talking about

[00:11:13] um

[00:11:14] the government in Greece

[00:11:15] like

[00:11:16] really embracing

[00:11:18] AI

[00:11:26] they

[00:11:27] to be honest it's not that revolutionary

[00:11:29] all they do is go in

[00:11:30] right here's some tools we've created

[00:11:33] it's very similar

[00:11:34] I mean if we were to reel off a few AI tools that teachers are already using around the world

[00:11:39] the tools that these guys have created aren't anything particularly different

[00:11:42] uh

[00:11:43] we're looking at kind of like

[00:11:45] toolbox style

[00:11:46] um

[00:11:47] apps that will do certain things using chat GPT

[00:11:50] um

[00:11:50] for teachers

[00:11:51] and I think they've got a student one

[00:11:52] student version as well that they've created

[00:11:54] and they've done it in part with the European Union as well

[00:11:58] um

[00:11:59] as like a

[00:12:00] an overall wider project

[00:12:02] but essentially they've just gone right

[00:12:03] here's two tools we've developed

[00:12:05] or

[00:12:05] all the EU's helped us develop

[00:12:07] um

[00:12:08] and we're gonna integrate them into our

[00:12:11] into our schools

[00:12:12] essentially

[00:12:12] that's

[00:12:13] in fact I was just preparing my um

[00:12:16] my podcast for tomorrow just before

[00:12:18] before I joined you

[00:12:19] when I

[00:12:19] I was reading a story about

[00:12:21] uh

[00:12:22] Philadelphia school system over in America

[00:12:24] and how they

[00:12:25] they're just about to do something similar

[00:12:27] um

[00:12:27] around

[00:12:28] around like a fully integrated

[00:12:30] CPD system

[00:12:31] um

[00:12:32] that will bring all of their teachers up to a certain level of knowledge

[00:12:35] and

[00:12:35] and skills around AI

[00:12:37] it's

[00:12:38] it's not too difficult

[00:12:39] to do this type of thing

[00:12:40] um

[00:12:41] if

[00:12:41] if uh

[00:12:42] and I

[00:12:43] it's in

[00:12:43] it's interesting because I've always been at kind of the grassroots

[00:12:45] I've always

[00:12:46] ever since I was

[00:12:47] trained to be a teacher

[00:12:48] and

[00:12:49] myself

[00:12:50] and uh

[00:12:50] a guy called Ben Whitaker

[00:12:52] we would do breakfast

[00:12:53] and breakfast mornings

[00:12:55] to try and get

[00:12:56] uh

[00:12:57] teachers

[00:12:58] um

[00:12:58] to explore ed tech tools

[00:13:00] we would

[00:13:00] we're trying to integrate Google tools at the time

[00:13:02] and um

[00:13:03] ever since those

[00:13:04] ever since those days

[00:13:05] I've always kind of been like a grassroots

[00:13:06] even when I was on senior leadership teams

[00:13:08] it always still kind of felt a bit out of place

[00:13:10] because I was kind of like

[00:13:11] so used to fighting

[00:13:13] fighting upwards

[00:13:14] yes

[00:13:15] rather than downwards

[00:13:17] um

[00:13:17] but

[00:13:18] but I really think that

[00:13:20] in order for meaningful change to happen

[00:13:22] it does

[00:13:23] it will have to come from the top down

[00:13:24] yeah

[00:13:25] um

[00:13:25] I think

[00:13:26] I've been

[00:13:27] I'm sure you guys

[00:13:27] have as well

[00:13:29] been at the grassroots

[00:13:30] fighting up

[00:13:31] for such a long time

[00:13:32] oh yes

[00:13:32] yeah

[00:13:33] I don't think

[00:13:34] unless we've got a top down approach

[00:13:36] as well

[00:13:37] yeah

[00:13:37] I don't think we're going to get any sustainable change

[00:13:40] so

[00:13:41] um

[00:13:42] and actually I write

[00:13:42] the very last chapter

[00:13:44] or the second to last chapter

[00:13:45] of my new book

[00:13:45] is all about

[00:13:46] kind of um

[00:13:47] it picks up on a

[00:13:48] on a theory called panarchy

[00:13:50] which is a

[00:13:51] like a

[00:13:52] it's from a

[00:13:53] uh

[00:13:53] like design thinking

[00:13:55] school called

[00:13:56] um

[00:13:57] liberating structures

[00:13:58] and it talks about how

[00:14:00] ecosystems within a school

[00:14:01] have to come from

[00:14:02] below and above

[00:14:03] um

[00:14:04] so yeah

[00:14:05] so I'm

[00:14:05] excited actually in the new year

[00:14:06] um

[00:14:07] um

[00:14:08] I haven't told anybody this yet

[00:14:09] uh

[00:14:09] but in the new year

[00:14:11] I'm pulling together

[00:14:12] some uh

[00:14:13] government officials

[00:14:14] some

[00:14:15] some

[00:14:16] uh

[00:14:17] from the uk

[00:14:18] to a

[00:14:19] to a meeting

[00:14:19] and we're

[00:14:20] we're going to sit down

[00:14:21] and talk about

[00:14:22] how do we

[00:14:22] how do we do the top down approach

[00:14:24] as well

[00:14:24] so

[00:14:24] I'm quite excited about that

[00:14:26] um

[00:14:26] because I think

[00:14:27] I think we do need that

[00:14:28] that global ended approach

[00:14:29] yeah

[00:14:30] I think yeah

[00:14:30] there's something about education

[00:14:32] that needs

[00:14:32] that feels safe

[00:14:33] when it's

[00:14:34] I think

[00:14:36] you know

[00:14:36] a lot of schools

[00:14:37] we speak to

[00:14:38] feel safe

[00:14:39] when they're

[00:14:39] following kind of

[00:14:40] government

[00:14:41] guidelines

[00:14:42] and

[00:14:42] yeah

[00:14:43] and there's a little bit

[00:14:44] of a message

[00:14:45] coming out of Scotland

[00:14:46] just now

[00:14:46] that actually

[00:14:47] you need to make

[00:14:47] the change yourself

[00:14:48] like I'm seeing

[00:14:50] a bit of that

[00:14:50] coming from

[00:14:51] um

[00:14:52] like

[00:14:52] you know

[00:14:53] Scottish government

[00:14:53] organisations

[00:14:54] where they're like

[00:14:55] you can't wait

[00:14:56] for the system

[00:14:57] to change

[00:14:57] you have to be brave

[00:14:59] and you know

[00:15:00] take that leap yourself

[00:15:01] but

[00:15:02] I think

[00:15:03] I think you're right

[00:15:04] I think

[00:15:04] the change in education

[00:15:06] because it's so embedded

[00:15:07] in who we are

[00:15:08] and

[00:15:08] we're dealing with children

[00:15:10] and young people

[00:15:11] and their lives

[00:15:11] at the end of the day

[00:15:12] there's a

[00:15:13] there's a big responsibility

[00:15:14] there isn't there

[00:15:15] and I think

[00:15:16] I think you guys in Scotland

[00:15:17] as well have had

[00:15:18] like I do quite a bit

[00:15:19] bit of work

[00:15:20] I've just

[00:15:20] I just came out

[00:15:21] with the Scottish leaders

[00:15:23] the SLS conference

[00:15:24] yes

[00:15:25] oh yeah yeah

[00:15:25] a few weeks ago

[00:15:27] and

[00:15:28] I find

[00:15:29] so in England

[00:15:31] 99% of my work

[00:15:32] comes from independent

[00:15:33] schools

[00:15:34] yeah

[00:15:35] and

[00:15:37] not

[00:15:37] not much

[00:15:38] unless they're getting

[00:15:39] together collaboratively

[00:15:40] into a bigger group

[00:15:41] not much from like

[00:15:42] the state sector

[00:15:44] whereas

[00:15:46] Scotland

[00:15:47] there's a lot of

[00:15:48] state schools

[00:15:49] that I work with

[00:15:50] around

[00:15:50] Glasgow areas

[00:15:52] and I

[00:15:54] I really see

[00:15:55] that the

[00:15:55] and I don't know

[00:15:56] if it's because

[00:15:56] you guys have had

[00:15:57] you guys have

[00:15:58] kind of in the past

[00:16:00] been a bit more

[00:16:00] innovative

[00:16:01] you change your

[00:16:01] curriculum

[00:16:02] you

[00:16:03] haven't been afraid

[00:16:04] to go right

[00:16:05] let's try something

[00:16:06] new

[00:16:06] and I think you guys

[00:16:07] are doing that

[00:16:07] at the minute

[00:16:08] as well

[00:16:08] aren't you

[00:16:08] like you've

[00:16:08] you've kind of

[00:16:09] you've

[00:16:10] you've recognized

[00:16:11] the curriculum

[00:16:11] might not be

[00:16:12] fully working

[00:16:12] and now you're

[00:16:13] going to try

[00:16:14] something else

[00:16:16] and so I think

[00:16:17] it's just kind of

[00:16:19] what you guys do

[00:16:19] up there

[00:16:20] is you try

[00:16:20] you try things

[00:16:22] out

[00:16:22] I like as well

[00:16:22] that you're

[00:16:23] working with

[00:16:24] the government

[00:16:25] officials

[00:16:25] because they could

[00:16:26] quite easily

[00:16:27] just say no

[00:16:28] and then you get

[00:16:29] a blanket

[00:16:29] they still might

[00:16:30] yes

[00:16:31] and so

[00:16:32] I think it's

[00:16:33] I think it is a

[00:16:33] great thing

[00:16:34] that you're

[00:16:34] promoting that

[00:16:35] and educating

[00:16:35] people

[00:16:36] and being like

[00:16:36] look at how

[00:16:37] amazing this

[00:16:37] could be

[00:16:37] in the future

[00:16:38] we just have

[00:16:39] to get that

[00:16:39] word out

[00:16:39] there and

[00:16:40] support our

[00:16:41] our teachers

[00:16:42] and therefore

[00:16:43] support our

[00:16:43] students to

[00:16:44] use these

[00:16:45] tools effectively

[00:16:46] and I think

[00:16:47] it would be

[00:16:47] amazing to

[00:16:48] go right

[00:16:49] you know

[00:16:49] let's say

[00:16:51] five ten years

[00:16:52] time

[00:16:52] we know

[00:16:53] AI is going

[00:16:54] to be

[00:16:54] ubiquitous

[00:16:54] it's going

[00:16:55] to be

[00:16:55] around us

[00:16:55] it's going

[00:16:55] to be

[00:16:56] what we

[00:16:56] do

[00:16:57] I think

[00:16:57] I reported

[00:16:58] yesterday

[00:16:59] that

[00:17:01] like we

[00:17:01] mentioned

[00:17:02] Neuralink

[00:17:02] right at the

[00:17:02] start

[00:17:03] we've got

[00:17:04] scale to

[00:17:05] grow

[00:17:05] to keep

[00:17:06] doing this

[00:17:06] stuff

[00:17:07] we're going

[00:17:07] to have

[00:17:08] augmented

[00:17:09] humans

[00:17:09] we're going

[00:17:09] to have

[00:17:10] chances are

[00:17:11] we're going

[00:17:11] to be living

[00:17:11] with humanoid

[00:17:13] robots

[00:17:13] this sounds

[00:17:14] crazy to

[00:17:15] anyone who

[00:17:15] hasn't jumped

[00:17:15] into this

[00:17:16] stuff

[00:17:16] well this

[00:17:17] stuff is

[00:17:17] happening

[00:17:18] and it's

[00:17:18] advancing at

[00:17:19] a very fast

[00:17:20] rate

[00:17:25] if we

[00:17:25] if let's

[00:17:26] say we

[00:17:26] didn't

[00:17:27] an education

[00:17:27] system

[00:17:28] didn't exist

[00:17:29] and we

[00:17:29] were to get

[00:17:30] in a room

[00:17:30] and go

[00:17:31] what kind

[00:17:31] of education

[00:17:32] system do

[00:17:32] we need to

[00:17:33] build

[00:17:33] yes I

[00:17:34] love this

[00:17:34] thought

[00:17:35] I love

[00:17:35] this question

[00:17:36] we go

[00:17:37] into this

[00:17:37] a lot

[00:17:38] like what

[00:17:39] would it

[00:17:39] look like

[00:17:39] yeah

[00:17:40] yeah and I

[00:17:41] can't imagine

[00:17:42] it would

[00:17:42] look all

[00:17:43] that much

[00:17:44] like what

[00:17:44] we've got

[00:17:44] now

[00:17:45] no there's

[00:17:46] no way

[00:17:46] they'd be

[00:17:47] like let's

[00:17:47] build little

[00:17:48] buildings in

[00:17:49] every village

[00:17:50] and fill them

[00:17:51] through a full

[00:17:51] of rooms and

[00:17:52] adults

[00:17:52] no exactly

[00:17:53] and you'd

[00:17:54] want and

[00:17:56] this is not

[00:17:56] about getting

[00:17:57] students integrated

[00:17:58] with tech more

[00:17:59] and more I

[00:17:59] think it's

[00:17:59] almost the

[00:18:00] opposite it's

[00:18:01] going right

[00:18:01] well if our

[00:18:02] world is going

[00:18:03] to be so

[00:18:04] ubiquitous with

[00:18:05] advanced

[00:18:05] technologies how

[00:18:07] do we provide

[00:18:07] a space where

[00:18:08] they are

[00:18:10] experiencing I

[00:18:11] don't know like

[00:18:11] in a non-tech

[00:18:12] space though

[00:18:13] yeah yeah

[00:18:14] more contact

[00:18:15] with humans

[00:18:15] it's interesting

[00:18:16] some people say

[00:18:17] to me especially

[00:18:17] when I talk

[00:18:17] about online

[00:18:18] schools and

[00:18:20] I don't think

[00:18:20] that they're

[00:18:20] like the utopia

[00:18:21] I don't think

[00:18:22] they're completely

[00:18:22] the answer but

[00:18:23] they're just

[00:18:24] another type of

[00:18:24] school but I

[00:18:26] know it's like

[00:18:27] one of the

[00:18:27] questions that

[00:18:27] always comes up

[00:18:28] is yeah but

[00:18:28] what about

[00:18:29] socialization like

[00:18:30] we're going to

[00:18:31] miss out on that

[00:18:31] like most schools

[00:18:32] I go into

[00:18:33] well in the UK

[00:18:34] anyway all the

[00:18:35] kids are sat

[00:18:37] in lines facing

[00:18:37] the front like

[00:18:38] yeah that's

[00:18:39] that's not a

[00:18:40] social situation

[00:18:42] and they're like

[00:18:43] that most of the

[00:18:43] day with like a

[00:18:44] 15 minute break

[00:18:45] and then a

[00:18:45] 20 minute break

[00:18:46] because I don't

[00:18:47] know about you

[00:18:47] but when I went

[00:18:49] to school lunch

[00:18:50] was an hour I

[00:18:50] go into most

[00:18:51] secondary schools

[00:18:52] now it's like

[00:18:52] 20 minutes

[00:18:53] yeah so it's

[00:18:54] like there's

[00:18:55] not much

[00:18:55] socialization going

[00:18:57] on anyway and

[00:18:58] if it is happening

[00:18:58] it's almost

[00:18:59] happening in

[00:19:00] spite of the

[00:19:01] the scenario

[00:19:02] that's going

[00:19:03] on so

[00:19:05] yeah I think

[00:19:06] I think we

[00:19:06] could probably do

[00:19:07] something better

[00:19:08] we could probably

[00:19:09] and I think just

[00:19:10] getting back to

[00:19:10] the principles

[00:19:11] and I was on

[00:19:12] another podcast

[00:19:12] recently and

[00:19:13] they asked me

[00:19:16] if you were in

[00:19:16] charge of the

[00:19:17] education bond

[00:19:17] for one day

[00:19:18] what would you

[00:19:18] do with that

[00:19:19] day

[00:19:20] put me on

[00:19:21] the spot

[00:19:21] but I

[00:19:22] I think

[00:19:23] I think

[00:19:23] it would be

[00:19:25] to go right

[00:19:25] let's get

[00:19:26] let's just

[00:19:27] get everyone

[00:19:27] in a room

[00:19:27] and go

[00:19:28] what are we

[00:19:29] doing here

[00:19:29] what's the

[00:19:29] purpose of

[00:19:30] this

[00:19:30] yeah

[00:19:31] because we

[00:19:31] haven't even

[00:19:31] agreed on that

[00:19:32] and if we

[00:19:33] haven't even

[00:19:33] agreed on the

[00:19:34] purpose of what

[00:19:35] we're doing

[00:19:35] then how

[00:19:36] on earth are

[00:19:37] we supposed

[00:19:37] to do

[00:19:37] anything else

[00:19:38] so I think

[00:19:38] I think

[00:19:39] yeah so

[00:19:40] I'm trying to

[00:19:40] group some

[00:19:41] people together

[00:19:42] to go

[00:19:43] some forward

[00:19:44] thinking

[00:19:44] some government

[00:19:45] officials

[00:19:45] and everyone

[00:19:46] in between

[00:19:47] to go

[00:19:47] what are we

[00:19:48] doing

[00:19:49] and how

[00:19:50] might we

[00:19:50] how might

[00:19:51] we do

[00:19:51] this

[00:19:52] so it's

[00:19:52] not even

[00:19:52] about AI

[00:19:53] it's more

[00:19:53] like what

[00:19:54] does education

[00:19:54] look like

[00:19:55] in an AI

[00:19:56] yeah

[00:19:56] how do we

[00:19:57] prepare young

[00:19:58] people for

[00:19:58] life and work

[00:20:00] in an AI

[00:20:00] driven world

[00:20:02] and it

[00:20:04] fascinates

[00:20:04] like I

[00:20:05] feel like

[00:20:05] there's just

[00:20:06] like there's

[00:20:07] so much

[00:20:08] opportunity

[00:20:08] in this

[00:20:09] to just

[00:20:10] rethink

[00:20:11] the way

[00:20:12] it's done

[00:20:12] and yes

[00:20:13] online schools

[00:20:14] will be

[00:20:15] thriving

[00:20:16] because some

[00:20:17] young people

[00:20:17] will prefer

[00:20:18] that way

[00:20:18] to learn

[00:20:19] key concepts

[00:20:20] and whatever

[00:20:21] else but

[00:20:22] imagine if we

[00:20:23] could just

[00:20:24] free up

[00:20:24] all the

[00:20:25] money

[00:20:26] that's

[00:20:27] rooted

[00:20:27] into the

[00:20:28] model we've

[00:20:29] got just now

[00:20:30] with 30

[00:20:30] you know

[00:20:31] young people

[00:20:32] and an

[00:20:34] educator

[00:20:34] because what

[00:20:36] you know

[00:20:36] what needs

[00:20:37] could we

[00:20:37] meet for

[00:20:38] the really

[00:20:39] vulnerable

[00:20:39] or the

[00:20:40] you know

[00:20:41] the ASD

[00:20:43] learners

[00:20:43] the learners

[00:20:44] that require

[00:20:45] more support

[00:20:46] think about

[00:20:47] what we could

[00:20:47] do with

[00:20:48] that like

[00:20:48] human resource

[00:20:50] if we just

[00:20:51] diverted it

[00:20:52] away from

[00:20:53] the current

[00:20:54] model

[00:20:55] like it

[00:20:56] blows my mind

[00:20:57] it's going to

[00:20:57] take

[00:20:58] some

[00:20:59] innovative

[00:21:00] head

[00:21:01] teacher

[00:21:01] somewhere

[00:21:02] to just

[00:21:03] rethink

[00:21:03] the model

[00:21:03] rethink

[00:21:04] the school

[00:21:04] day

[00:21:05] rethink

[00:21:05] the spaces

[00:21:06] and just

[00:21:07] be bold

[00:21:08] to be fair

[00:21:09] that is

[00:21:10] happening

[00:21:10] in some

[00:21:10] circumstances

[00:21:11] you look

[00:21:11] at like

[00:21:11] XP

[00:21:12] schools

[00:21:13] school

[00:21:14] the school

[00:21:14] group

[00:21:15] that started

[00:21:15] in

[00:21:15] Doncaster

[00:21:16] now they've

[00:21:16] got

[00:21:16] they've

[00:21:16] just opened

[00:21:17] a school

[00:21:17] near me

[00:21:18] where they

[00:21:19] totally

[00:21:20] they don't

[00:21:20] have

[00:21:21] they don't

[00:21:21] teach

[00:21:22] subjects

[00:21:22] now

[00:21:22] they teach

[00:21:24] collaborative

[00:21:24] projects

[00:21:26] they get

[00:21:27] good

[00:21:27] Ofsted

[00:21:27] ratings

[00:21:28] they get

[00:21:28] good grades

[00:21:29] as well

[00:21:30] they still

[00:21:30] work within

[00:21:31] the English

[00:21:31] system

[00:21:32] so it is

[00:21:34] happening

[00:21:34] but it just

[00:21:35] seems to be

[00:21:36] kind of like

[00:21:36] outliers

[00:21:37] and I think

[00:21:38] again it comes

[00:21:39] down to

[00:21:40] what do we

[00:21:42] measure

[00:21:43] because

[00:21:44] just like

[00:21:45] there's no

[00:21:45] incentive

[00:21:46] for a

[00:21:47] teacher to

[00:21:48] start using

[00:21:48] edtech in

[00:21:49] their classroom

[00:21:49] really

[00:21:51] unless you've

[00:21:52] got a

[00:21:52] school that's

[00:21:52] really pushing

[00:21:53] it and saying

[00:21:53] it's part of

[00:21:54] your performance

[00:21:55] appraisal and

[00:21:56] all that

[00:21:56] thing

[00:21:57] a school

[00:21:58] doesn't have

[00:21:59] to do

[00:22:00] anything

[00:22:00] different

[00:22:02] even though

[00:22:04] other schools

[00:22:04] might be doing

[00:22:05] something different

[00:22:05] because as long

[00:22:06] as they get

[00:22:07] those good

[00:22:07] grades every

[00:22:08] year

[00:22:08] as long as

[00:22:09] they get

[00:22:09] that Ofsted

[00:22:10] rate and

[00:22:10] whatever it

[00:22:10] might be

[00:22:12] then that's

[00:22:13] all that

[00:22:13] really matters

[00:22:13] and actually

[00:22:16] there are

[00:22:16] amazing ways

[00:22:17] to streamline

[00:22:19] that and we

[00:22:19] see that there

[00:22:20] are schools

[00:22:20] out there

[00:22:21] who are

[00:22:22] going right

[00:22:23] this is what

[00:22:23] we need to

[00:22:24] do and

[00:22:25] this is

[00:22:26] we're gonna

[00:22:29] make that

[00:22:30] more efficient

[00:22:30] so you get

[00:22:31] schools like

[00:22:32] Michaela School

[00:22:33] in London

[00:22:33] and I talk

[00:22:35] about this

[00:22:35] I've visited

[00:22:36] them I went

[00:22:37] to visit

[00:22:37] Michaela and

[00:22:38] other schools

[00:22:39] who I think

[00:22:40] have I don't

[00:22:41] think I'm being

[00:22:41] unfair here

[00:22:42] but I think

[00:22:43] from what I

[00:22:44] saw what

[00:22:44] they've done

[00:22:45] is they've

[00:22:45] looked at

[00:22:46] the current

[00:22:46] system

[00:22:47] they've

[00:22:48] looked at

[00:22:48] what to

[00:22:49] do good

[00:22:49] grades

[00:22:52] and went

[00:22:52] right well

[00:22:53] how do we

[00:22:53] optimize it

[00:22:54] so that we

[00:22:55] get to that

[00:22:56] end point

[00:22:57] really really

[00:22:58] well and I

[00:22:59] kind of like

[00:23:00] it and it's a

[00:23:00] bit cliche but

[00:23:01] it's like that

[00:23:01] you know raw

[00:23:02] materials into a

[00:23:02] factory go

[00:23:04] along the

[00:23:04] convient

[00:23:04] to come out

[00:23:05] at the end

[00:23:05] whatever product

[00:23:07] they need to

[00:23:07] be

[00:23:07] now I

[00:23:08] remember looking

[00:23:09] this up

[00:23:11] as somebody

[00:23:11] who is a

[00:23:12] production line

[00:23:14] engineer or

[00:23:15] consultant

[00:23:16] so someone

[00:23:17] who's freelance

[00:23:18] goes in

[00:23:18] gets

[00:23:18] company says

[00:23:20] come in

[00:23:20] have a look

[00:23:21] at our

[00:23:21] production

[00:23:21] line

[00:23:22] and

[00:23:22] recommend

[00:23:23] some places

[00:23:24] for efficiency

[00:23:25] and so on

[00:23:26] they can get

[00:23:27] paid hundreds

[00:23:28] of thousands

[00:23:29] of pounds

[00:23:29] just for one

[00:23:30] job

[00:23:31] just for one

[00:23:31] job

[00:23:32] because you

[00:23:33] think about it

[00:23:33] they could be

[00:23:34] saving the company

[00:23:35] millions

[00:23:36] just by like

[00:23:38] saving a second

[00:23:38] somewhere

[00:23:39] I think what's

[00:23:40] what's quite an

[00:23:41] interesting like

[00:23:42] thought as well

[00:23:43] is the idea of

[00:23:44] like work

[00:23:45] and like we're

[00:23:47] not like if we

[00:23:48] were talking about

[00:23:49] young people

[00:23:49] entering the

[00:23:51] workforce or

[00:23:52] enterprise

[00:23:52] sooner

[00:23:53] we were not

[00:23:54] talking about

[00:23:55] chimney sweeps

[00:23:56] anymore

[00:23:56] you know

[00:23:57] we're talking

[00:23:58] they would be

[00:23:59] possibly in

[00:24:00] remote workplaces

[00:24:01] in remote teams

[00:24:03] collaborating online

[00:24:05] like I do

[00:24:06] wonder like

[00:24:07] we've all been

[00:24:08] in secondary

[00:24:09] schools and

[00:24:09] seen the kind

[00:24:10] of disengaged

[00:24:11] young person

[00:24:12] who goes away

[00:24:13] home and runs

[00:24:13] their online

[00:24:14] business

[00:24:15] and it's that

[00:24:16] disconnect

[00:24:17] between like

[00:24:18] you know what

[00:24:19] young people are

[00:24:20] doing at home

[00:24:20] in terms of

[00:24:21] enterprise

[00:24:22] and you know

[00:24:24] the way they

[00:24:25] work

[00:24:26] and then the

[00:24:27] disconnect between

[00:24:27] what they do

[00:24:28] in school

[00:24:28] that really

[00:24:29] interests me as

[00:24:30] well

[00:24:30] yeah and it

[00:24:31] is interesting

[00:24:32] that I know a

[00:24:33] lot of businesses

[00:24:33] who suddenly

[00:24:34] thought we can't

[00:24:35] ask workers to

[00:24:36] come into the

[00:24:36] office just to

[00:24:37] sit on a

[00:24:37] computer

[00:24:38] like it

[00:24:38] doesn't make

[00:24:39] sense anymore

[00:24:39] especially when

[00:24:40] they're doing it

[00:24:40] from home

[00:24:41] pretty well

[00:24:42] for a while

[00:24:42] so we have

[00:24:43] to look at

[00:24:44] well what are

[00:24:44] we doing inside

[00:24:45] of the building

[00:24:48] that means

[00:24:48] that it's worth

[00:24:49] coming to

[00:24:50] yes it's meaningful

[00:24:51] and I completely

[00:24:52] understand like

[00:24:53] some people might

[00:24:53] listen to this

[00:24:54] thing well you

[00:24:54] can't do that

[00:24:55] with 11 year old

[00:24:56] kids 12 year old

[00:24:57] kids go right

[00:24:58] do work from

[00:24:59] like we did

[00:24:59] that and it

[00:25:00] didn't particularly

[00:25:01] work well

[00:25:01] in fact when I'm

[00:25:02] working with schools

[00:25:03] I have a pair of

[00:25:04] you know the

[00:25:04] Ray-Ban

[00:25:05] meta sunglasses

[00:25:06] oh yeah

[00:25:07] pair of

[00:25:08] Ray-Ban

[00:25:08] glasses

[00:25:09] yeah and it

[00:25:10] has AI

[00:25:10] you can have a

[00:25:11] conversation with

[00:25:12] it and you can

[00:25:12] sell it to look at

[00:25:13] things and explain

[00:25:14] things to you

[00:25:14] yeah and I

[00:25:17] talk about how

[00:25:18] well actually in the

[00:25:18] next few years

[00:25:20] these will be a

[00:25:22] lot more advanced

[00:25:22] in fact the

[00:25:23] technology in them

[00:25:23] now if you compare

[00:25:24] to like the

[00:25:25] chat GPT app

[00:25:26] is it feels

[00:25:27] almost primitive

[00:25:28] yeah so once

[00:25:29] once the

[00:25:30] technology that

[00:25:31] you get like

[00:25:31] let's say just

[00:25:32] right now in the

[00:25:33] chat GPT app

[00:25:34] comes to those

[00:25:35] glasses they're

[00:25:37] going to be a

[00:25:37] very interesting

[00:25:38] bit of technology

[00:25:39] and I think we're

[00:25:40] not going to

[00:25:40] it's not going to

[00:25:41] take long before

[00:25:42] a parent's trying

[00:25:43] to get their

[00:25:43] kid out of bed

[00:25:44] to go to school

[00:25:44] in the morning

[00:25:45] and their kid

[00:25:45] just goes well

[00:25:46] why don't I need

[00:25:47] to go I've got

[00:25:48] these like

[00:25:49] yeah to teach me

[00:25:51] things and it

[00:25:52] shows me what to

[00:25:53] do it teaches me

[00:25:54] skills it tests me

[00:25:55] it's yeah there's

[00:25:57] an app on there

[00:25:57] that's trained in

[00:25:58] retrieval practice

[00:25:59] and so it helps

[00:26:00] me embed the

[00:26:00] learning and

[00:26:01] yeah like so I

[00:26:03] think in that

[00:26:04] scenario we've got

[00:26:05] it as a school

[00:26:06] or as a college

[00:26:07] or as a university

[00:26:08] go well what are

[00:26:10] we offering that's

[00:26:10] different to just

[00:26:11] imparting knowledge

[00:26:12] and testing that

[00:26:13] knowledge yeah

[00:26:14] that's a difficult

[00:26:16] question because

[00:26:17] 99% of schooling

[00:26:18] at the minute is

[00:26:19] imparting knowledge

[00:26:20] and testing that

[00:26:21] knowledge so

[00:26:22] and there's an

[00:26:23] argument sorry

[00:26:25] there's an argument

[00:26:25] with AI that

[00:26:26] knowledge will have

[00:26:27] a worth of zero

[00:26:30] like essentially

[00:26:31] it makes

[00:26:31] knowledge

[00:26:32] we're all just

[00:26:33] accessing a sense

[00:26:34] yeah worthless

[00:26:35] yeah it's interesting

[00:26:36] isn't it like

[00:26:37] and I can feel

[00:26:39] all the learning

[00:26:40] psychologists

[00:26:41] screaming at us

[00:26:42] right now

[00:26:42] yeah I know

[00:26:43] and I get it

[00:26:44] like you do

[00:26:45] in order to build

[00:26:46] skills you need to

[00:26:47] work with

[00:26:48] knowledge

[00:26:48] and I don't think

[00:26:49] any of us are

[00:26:50] saying knowledge

[00:26:50] is not important

[00:26:51] but I completely

[00:26:53] understand what you're

[00:26:53] saying in that

[00:26:54] and it's quite

[00:26:56] similar to what

[00:26:56] we've got today

[00:26:57] if I need to

[00:26:57] know something

[00:26:58] I'm straight on

[00:26:59] YouTube and I'm

[00:26:59] watching a video

[00:27:00] yep I think I

[00:27:01] like to use the

[00:27:01] term just in time

[00:27:03] learning yes

[00:27:06] because we've got

[00:27:07] a system that

[00:27:08] that look that

[00:27:08] deals with just

[00:27:09] in case learning

[00:27:10] at the moment

[00:27:11] and yeah that's a

[00:27:12] really good way

[00:27:13] to put it

[00:27:13] everyone in a

[00:27:14] room for 14

[00:27:15] years and we're

[00:27:16] just going to

[00:27:16] give them so much

[00:27:17] knowledge just in

[00:27:18] case they need to

[00:27:19] use it sometime in

[00:27:20] their life and how

[00:27:21] much do you actually

[00:27:23] again another big

[00:27:24] cliche but they're

[00:27:25] cliches for a reason

[00:27:26] because they actually

[00:27:26] ring true with a lot

[00:27:27] of people in that

[00:27:28] how much do we

[00:27:30] actually remember

[00:27:30] like we literally

[00:27:31] take the piss

[00:27:32] don't we're like

[00:27:33] about Oxbow

[00:27:33] Lakes and stuff

[00:27:34] like that because

[00:27:34] we're like because

[00:27:36] it's literally the

[00:27:37] only thing we

[00:27:37] remember 1832

[00:27:39] Reform Act

[00:27:41] I'll never forget

[00:27:42] Mentechondrin's

[00:27:42] the powerhouse of

[00:27:43] the cell yep

[00:27:45] and I bet if

[00:27:46] someone said to

[00:27:47] you right here's

[00:27:47] a bit of paper or

[00:27:48] here's a pad of

[00:27:49] paper spend a day

[00:27:50] and try and write

[00:27:50] down everything you

[00:27:51] remember from 14

[00:27:52] years of school

[00:27:53] yep you'd probably

[00:27:54] do a good job but

[00:27:55] it wouldn't be 14

[00:27:56] years worth it

[00:27:56] wouldn't it probably

[00:27:57] wouldn't even be a

[00:27:58] week's worth

[00:27:58] I think we need to

[00:28:04] go right well

[00:28:05] what's knowledge

[00:28:06] important for and

[00:28:08] again it gets back

[00:28:09] to the why doesn't

[00:28:09] it of well why

[00:28:10] are we doing this

[00:28:11] well we're doing

[00:28:12] this again it's a

[00:28:15] it's multiple

[00:28:17] approaches and I

[00:28:18] think I used to be

[00:28:18] a philosophy teacher

[00:28:19] so I'm still very

[00:28:20] much a fan of

[00:28:22] knowledge for the

[00:28:23] sake of knowledge

[00:28:23] or education

[00:28:24] is still really

[00:28:25] important

[00:28:26] sure yeah

[00:28:27] but it needs to

[00:28:29] also be knowledge

[00:28:30] to lead to

[00:28:32] something and to

[00:28:33] be honest

[00:28:33] philosophical

[00:28:34] knowledge has to

[00:28:35] lead to something

[00:28:35] as well it has to

[00:28:36] lead to well the

[00:28:37] skill to be able to

[00:28:38] self-reflect on it

[00:28:39] to critically

[00:28:40] analyze it to

[00:28:41] test it out in the

[00:28:42] world and so I

[00:28:44] think we need to

[00:28:45] think and this is

[00:28:46] not just this is

[00:28:46] not a job thing

[00:28:47] so again if

[00:28:48] someone's out there

[00:28:48] thinking education

[00:28:50] is not about

[00:28:50] work I mean a

[00:28:53] lot of it is to

[00:28:53] be fair and it

[00:28:54] probably it should

[00:28:54] be but also it's

[00:28:56] about how to how

[00:28:56] to live a happy

[00:28:57] life yeah

[00:28:58] successful in your

[00:28:59] 20s 30s 40s 50s

[00:29:01] 60s how are we

[00:29:02] preparing and I

[00:29:04] think I think just

[00:29:05] front-loading work

[00:29:07] at the most

[00:29:09] energetic time of

[00:29:12] your life and

[00:29:13] making people sit

[00:29:13] down in rows for

[00:29:15] five hours a day

[00:29:16] I think again we

[00:29:18] go back to that

[00:29:19] room where we go

[00:29:20] how do we create

[00:29:21] an education system

[00:29:22] I just can't imagine

[00:29:23] that's how we'd come

[00:29:24] up with it and I

[00:29:25] think it lacks

[00:29:27] imagination it

[00:29:28] lacks any

[00:29:29] understanding of

[00:29:30] what kids need at

[00:29:32] that moment in

[00:29:32] life and it

[00:29:33] lacks I think

[00:29:35] an understanding

[00:29:36] of how we use

[00:29:38] knowledge that

[00:29:39] it's literally like

[00:29:40] ever since we're a

[00:29:40] baby we we learn

[00:29:42] to do something

[00:29:43] because we want to

[00:29:44] get something or we

[00:29:44] want to yes

[00:29:45] a baby will

[00:29:46] literally get up

[00:29:47] and start walking

[00:29:48] because it feels

[00:29:50] the need to get

[00:29:50] from one side of

[00:29:51] the room to

[00:29:51] another it

[00:29:52] doesn't do it

[00:29:53] for the love of

[00:29:53] knowing how to

[00:29:54] walk and then

[00:29:55] once it knows

[00:29:56] that sits back

[00:29:57] down and goes

[00:29:57] right well I

[00:29:57] know that now

[00:29:58] it's a nice

[00:29:58] thought to have

[00:30:00] it's all

[00:30:01] to lead to

[00:30:02] something yeah

[00:30:03] and what I'm

[00:30:04] saying I'm not

[00:30:04] I'm not saying

[00:30:05] let's dismantle

[00:30:06] schools and

[00:30:07] then just put

[00:30:08] people out into

[00:30:09] the world kids

[00:30:10] out into the

[00:30:10] world and then

[00:30:11] they can learn

[00:30:11] it as they need

[00:30:12] to know it

[00:30:12] but it's about

[00:30:13] going right well

[00:30:14] how do we

[00:30:14] create that

[00:30:15] environment within

[00:30:16] because I'm a big

[00:30:17] believer let me

[00:30:17] let me sidetrack for

[00:30:18] a second that

[00:30:20] innovation we have

[00:30:20] to innovate in two

[00:30:21] different ways so

[00:30:22] we have to innovate

[00:30:22] in a linear way

[00:30:23] and a non-linear way

[00:30:24] and what I mean by

[00:30:26] that is we have

[00:30:27] to innovate inside

[00:30:28] the system we

[00:30:29] already have

[00:30:31] because we can't

[00:30:31] just go right

[00:30:32] shut it down

[00:30:33] because what do

[00:30:35] we do tomorrow

[00:30:36] like it's just

[00:30:37] but we can slowly

[00:30:39] innovate inside

[00:30:41] and that tends

[00:30:42] to be linear

[00:30:42] innovation because

[00:30:43] it's still the

[00:30:44] same goals

[00:30:44] it's still the

[00:30:45] same metrics

[00:30:45] we're measuring

[00:30:46] and to be fair

[00:30:47] that's what we've

[00:30:47] done with AI

[00:30:47] mainly haven't we

[00:30:48] we've gone how

[00:30:49] do we use that

[00:30:50] to make this

[00:30:51] more efficient

[00:30:52] that's kind of

[00:30:53] what we've done

[00:30:54] and it's the

[00:30:54] natural first

[00:30:55] step of

[00:30:56] innovation

[00:30:57] but if we want

[00:30:58] to create the

[00:30:59] future if we

[00:30:59] want to make

[00:31:00] sure we stay

[00:31:00] relevant we

[00:31:01] have to do

[00:31:02] non-linear

[00:31:02] innovation at

[00:31:03] the same time

[00:31:04] and we have

[00:31:04] to go well

[00:31:05] if something does

[00:31:06] happen to our

[00:31:07] current system

[00:31:08] and it becomes

[00:31:09] irrelevant or

[00:31:10] it's disrupted

[00:31:10] in some way

[00:31:12] what can we

[00:31:13] move to

[00:31:13] how can we

[00:31:14] make it more

[00:31:15] relevant

[00:31:15] and I think

[00:31:16] good leadership

[00:31:17] is about doing

[00:31:17] both of those

[00:31:18] at the same

[00:31:18] time

[00:31:21] so I think

[00:31:22] what I'm saying

[00:31:23] here is not

[00:31:23] just demolish

[00:31:24] what we've

[00:31:25] got

[00:31:25] it's going

[00:31:26] well how do

[00:31:27] we please

[00:31:28] get a group

[00:31:29] together

[00:31:29] in fact my

[00:31:30] whole

[00:31:30] the second

[00:31:31] part of my

[00:31:31] new book

[00:31:32] is all around

[00:31:32] getting a group

[00:31:33] together to look

[00:31:34] at the non-linear

[00:31:34] and start

[00:31:35] working on that

[00:31:36] now

[00:31:37] but also

[00:31:38] go right

[00:31:38] well how do

[00:31:39] we start

[00:31:39] bringing elements

[00:31:41] of that type

[00:31:42] of what we

[00:31:44] want into

[00:31:45] what we've

[00:31:45] already got

[00:31:46] so for

[00:31:46] example

[00:31:48] giving kids

[00:31:49] work that

[00:31:49] actually means

[00:31:50] something

[00:31:51] that's

[00:31:51] I mean

[00:31:52] and people

[00:31:53] have been

[00:31:53] saying this

[00:31:54] for years

[00:31:54] haven't they

[00:31:54] and we kind

[00:31:55] of do

[00:31:55] tokenistic

[00:31:56] ways

[00:31:57] like mini

[00:31:58] projects

[00:31:59] and whatever

[00:32:01] it's kind

[00:32:02] of like

[00:32:02] it's left

[00:32:03] to a drop

[00:32:03] down day

[00:32:04] or some

[00:32:05] kind of

[00:32:06] funky day

[00:32:07] within the

[00:32:07] school

[00:32:07] timetable

[00:32:08] absolutely

[00:32:09] and it's

[00:32:10] and even

[00:32:11] just doing

[00:32:12] that shows

[00:32:12] the kids

[00:32:13] it's not

[00:32:13] it's not

[00:32:14] integral to

[00:32:14] what they

[00:32:15] need to

[00:32:15] do

[00:32:16] it's just

[00:32:17] almost like

[00:32:17] a different

[00:32:20] day that

[00:32:21] happens every

[00:32:21] now and

[00:32:22] but I

[00:32:23] think making

[00:32:25] like what

[00:32:26] like I

[00:32:26] remember

[00:32:26] hearing I

[00:32:27] used to

[00:32:27] when I

[00:32:27] was on

[00:32:28] when I

[00:32:28] was in

[00:32:29] leadership

[00:32:29] of

[00:32:29] secondary

[00:32:29] schools

[00:32:30] technology

[00:32:31] was kind

[00:32:32] of my

[00:32:32] main

[00:32:33] responsibility

[00:32:33] but also

[00:32:35] careers

[00:32:36] and I

[00:32:37] used to

[00:32:37] love how

[00:32:37] I

[00:32:37] had to

[00:32:38] play

[00:32:38] with

[00:32:38] both

[00:32:38] of

[00:32:38] those

[00:32:38] because

[00:32:38] I

[00:32:39] thought

[00:32:39] they

[00:32:39] were

[00:32:39] very

[00:32:39] well

[00:32:40] integrated

[00:32:40] but I

[00:32:41] remember hearing a story

[00:32:42] of a school

[00:32:42] that got like a local business person in someone from their area who was really having trouble with their business

[00:32:51] presented it to them

[00:32:53] and they worked on it and and then at the end of the term they went to the to the business and they presented to the business like what their what their solution would be and it's like

[00:33:07] that like something that means something yes that's where I was going earlier when I mentioned the kind of like we're not talking about sweeping chimneys anymore because you know I've I've seen bits of projects like that as well where you get young people in a room

[00:33:20] give them a real world problem like give them a real world business problem

[00:33:25] some of the solutions are just incredible and you think like I know what's happening with my nieces like they're only 12 and 14 but actually they're very capable

[00:33:34] and yeah you know like they could contribute to a workforce in a really creative and innovative way

[00:33:44] there's loads of studies that say like actually if you expect something from kids

[00:33:49] rather than just knowing or thinking you know what they can handle

[00:33:53] actually they they step up to the plate more than not and actually

[00:33:57] and actually deliver and I think

[00:33:58] yep

[00:33:59] and again there's

[00:34:00] there's places out there doing this like I mentioned XP before XP

[00:34:03] what they will do in fact one of the projects I remember learning about was

[00:34:07] was about around refugees in their area

[00:34:11] so there was a refugee centre in their area struggling

[00:34:15] so they literally will form like let's say a project around it and they'll go right well

[00:34:19] first of all we probably need to know about the history of this of what's going on here

[00:34:23] the history of

[00:34:24] the countries and the politics and the countries and how they arrived here

[00:34:29] yeah absolutely

[00:34:30] there's geography involved there's history involved

[00:34:33] there's a lot so they build that knowledge

[00:34:37] and they're quite open

[00:34:38] languages

[00:34:39] languages

[00:34:40] yeah yeah

[00:34:41] exactly yeah

[00:34:44] problem solving and entrepreneurship if they're going to actually bring something

[00:34:48] to life in terms of a solution

[00:34:50] and I think they did like they ended up doing some kind of project where they

[00:34:54] they decided the best thing they could do

[00:34:56] in their remit at that time was I think they

[00:34:58] was to

[00:35:00] donate bikes to them so they could get

[00:35:02] around easier and that was what

[00:35:04] they came up with so their projects have a

[00:35:06] real world impact

[00:35:07] and if you go on their amazon they sell like kids books and things so that and compilations

[00:35:14] of kids work because they want everything they do to have like a

[00:35:18] some kind of real world relevance that can be accessed by anybody so it's not

[00:35:23] yep it's not new this it's just how do we take this type of thing and go around how do how does it become

[00:35:30] how does it become part of the system and actually you know as I'm saying this I'm like that's why I love being on podcasts because I get to just think you get to think

[00:35:39] I love it yep yeah but it maybe doesn't need to be a system in fact I just I one of the chapters of my new book is is about decentralized education and about how we're seeing we're seeing it a lot around the world like a phenomena of decentralizing systems we're seeing it in finance bitcoin is up to I checked it this morning is up to

[00:36:00] 106 000 per bitcoin like this no and we're starting I was I was probably a couple of years ago now talking to a someone who works in in health and how health are really pushing for more decentralized systems to get away from hospitals and away from a centralized area and so on and and we're really seeing this as a

[00:36:24] was a real phenomena and I think we're probably seeing it in education to a certain degree as well with kind of a guy going I'm going to set up an online school

[00:36:33] yes going online schools in the country within a couple of years to to someone going you know what I'm gonna I'm gonna homeschool and my kids are gonna do two days a week to this online American school and I'm gonna take them to an outdoor center on Wednesdays

[00:36:47] yes we're starting to see kind of power slowly at the minute in education but I think it will grow away from the central system and more to the individual now there's a huge problem with that which I want to recognize and that is

[00:37:01] um child care I think that's the huge part I want I mean if we and if we want to be really honest about it especially for

[00:37:07] um those lower ages

[00:37:13] education's probably more valuable as a child care system than an educational system so that's a big problem but I think we will I think what we will see is choice

[00:37:21] yeah and I suppose like if we're saving like I suppose like when you think about the education budget

[00:37:27] it's incredible amount of money there's opportunities to save money in one pocket like in secondary schools

[00:37:34] and you know channel that money into increased funding for

[00:37:39] the younger ones and primary because I don't think I think the value of young people being

[00:37:45] somewhere and you know getting that kind of nurture and

[00:37:50] that's like incredibly valuable but maybe in the secondary years there is an opportunity for that

[00:37:56] kind of community focused projects and maybe involve the adults and the parents in those projects

[00:38:03] I think we see people paying like lip service to that up here where they're like we need to involve

[00:38:09] parents more parental involvement it's really important but then they try and involve parents and

[00:38:13] like you know teaching maths and you're like well yeah that's great but actually you'd get more parental

[00:38:20] involvement if you were on a joint project to the benefit of your community you know and it's

[00:38:26] you feel like those kind of things would would tick a lot of the boxes that we're trying to tick

[00:38:31] tacking it onto our current analog system you know it's yeah interesting

[00:38:36] we all started to see parents kind of come up with solutions like taking it into their own hands

[00:38:42] and I was talking to someone who they were looking at a model where they you know how you get like

[00:38:48] these kind of workspaces where people who have their own business or work from home sure yeah rent like a

[00:38:54] desk at a local workspace well they were looking at well how do we get a bunch of families together

[00:39:01] they all kind of work from home or have a business rent one of these so let's say you have let's say

[00:39:07] you have 20 workers in a space and then within that space you have a room or a few rooms where all their

[00:39:16] kids go throughout the day and then they all pay into a pot to pay a teacher who will be with them

[00:39:22] throughout the day who will who will be a bit innovative who will not just do they're not going to be an

[00:39:28] expert at everything so they will do some online stuff with them like assist them in that but then

[00:39:32] also do and almost just creating their own microcosm of well we're going to go to work and work in these

[00:39:38] offices and then our kids can come with us and they can they can learn they can be part of a school

[00:39:44] culture society a community there and then they all have lunch together at a certain time of day with

[00:39:51] the kids and the families something lovely about that yeah there's something really nice isn't it and I like

[00:39:57] that there's people out there going you know what maybe we can just do it better ourselves let's get

[00:40:02] some people together and see and I love that idea of that it's decent like decentralization in practice

[00:40:10] of and it's not going to work for everyone um like even you've I mean you'd have to have a business

[00:40:16] and have enough money coming in to be able to support that so fund that yeah and again I can hear

[00:40:21] people saying well this is very nice for people who've got money isn't it yeah um and and completely

[00:40:27] completely it is but I think that is why the actual system needs to do something because I do see

[00:40:36] in that there being kind of a split off between those who have and those who don't have yeah and we've

[00:40:44] seen that split in independent education for yep deck for hundreds of years but it's always been

[00:40:50] it's always been kind of that top whatever percentage that kind of more elite and I and I see kind of

[00:40:56] some of these options becoming a lot cheaper yeah in fact there's an online school I was looking at

[00:41:00] the other day which was like a fraction of the price of independent schooling um and and I and I yeah and I

[00:41:07] think as it does become a lot cheaper then then kind of your average working person might have options

[00:41:14] there as well and might have um choices that they just couldn't have dreamed of a few years ago

[00:41:20] and that does worry me because I mean I I grew up in a council estate in in Gateshead and um didn't

[00:41:28] really grow up with anything I'm I'm I'm come from a very working class background and and I can see

[00:41:34] that if I grew up in that type of world it would have been a very different world to grow up in I would

[00:41:38] have been part of that not scooping is it is it Norway or Sweden it's one of the Nordic countries

[00:41:44] that did away with independent schools the goal was to put the money back into those state places so

[00:41:51] and parents who had the luxury of having money were applying that to their child's education and that

[00:41:57] then affected the the students who didn't have access to that money yeah Finland don't they yeah

[00:42:03] I don't think they have them and they no it's Finland yeah their prime minister literally just sends

[00:42:07] their kids to like the local school yeah and they want every school to be excellent every school

[00:42:13] should be of the same I don't think they've got any way to do to distinguish between schools so it's

[00:42:19] not you can't even measure them you can't go other schools obviously they just don't have any way to

[00:42:23] to compare them so every school is considered a good school like um get rid of the league tables yeah

[00:42:32] yeah yeah I'm not I'm not entirely I'm I'm not entirely sure how they do it but um it's an

[00:42:38] interesting concept in fact there was a BBC documentary a few months ago I'm not sure if

[00:42:42] you I'm not sure if you saw it some guy went over and spent a bit of time I think he was just doing

[00:42:47] a kind of a bit of an evaluation of the system the education system I think he might have been a

[00:42:51] comedian and he was just going going around spending times in classes and went to Finland and like I think

[00:42:58] one of the kids just got up and walked out of the classroom and he was like what's good he'd just

[00:43:02] spent a few weeks in in uh schools in the UK yeah he was like oh my goodness what's going on

[00:43:08] and he's like nobody's faced by this like um and it just turned out the kid had gone to the

[00:43:13] gone to the toilet and the teacher was like he's gone he's gone he's gone to the toilet what's what's

[00:43:19] wrong he's like what he hasn't asked why would he have to ask to go to the toilet that's just bizarre

[00:43:25] and I mean you imagine like a kid in in a in English or a Scottish school just stands up

[00:43:30] in class and walks out the classroom you'd be like calling yeah deputies in my classroom now

[00:43:36] yeah

[00:43:42] so you'd mentioned a lot your book that you've got coming out um I want to find out just a

[00:43:48] little bit more about the book that you've got coming out and also it's a book about kind of AI

[00:43:53] and how we can use AI so how much has AI been used in writing that book and creating that that

[00:44:00] that book I've got I've got a acknowledgements page at the back where I I literally detail how

[00:44:06] I've used AI throughout the book right off the top of my head without having to pull having to pull

[00:44:11] up that um I for research uh used I used a lot of it I used used AI a lot for research so

[00:44:18] tools like notebook LM picking loads of sources and then trying to pull out uh asking a

[00:44:23] questions and pulling out different information you could use um also used uh chatubut search

[00:44:31] for a bit of research uh quill bot to write citations for me because I absolutely hate writing

[00:44:38] citations yes yeah a tool called illicit for looking for research papers which is an AI tool

[00:44:44] which looks for research papers um and other tools for ideas yeah from little things like if I'm writing

[00:44:51] a sentence I'm like I don't know how to make this sound good or flow into the next sentence yes yeah

[00:44:55] I've used AI for that um yeah that's uh I used AI detectors quite a bit yeah I noticed like you put a

[00:45:05] post on LinkedIn or something like yesterday or the day before where you were like I'm finding myself

[00:45:11] rewriting what I've actually written because I'm worried that it's going to get picked up on it and I

[00:45:17] haven't used an AI yeah but you still for the book I did that a lot because I think I'm just because

[00:45:23] I'm first because my work is in AI and I write books I think it's a lot of people or I get the

[00:45:29] joke a lot from people like oh you wrote obviously yeah yeah and I get that as a joke quite a bit but

[00:45:35] and I know it's a joke but the back of my mind like makes me paranoid like because I'm like like

[00:45:40] because I'm like I didn't like I've used it to like help me like it's a color collaborative I haven't

[00:45:45] used it to write it so so I'm so I every time I write something I put it through an AI generator

[00:45:51] just to see if it's flagged as AI because I just have this paranoia yeah I think like someone

[00:45:57] someone's going to take my book copy it put it into an AI generator and it's going to say oh

[00:46:01] 15 percent 30 percent generated by AI and they're gonna think oh this guy's just used AI

[00:46:06] so I sometimes put it in and if it says if it identifies something as AI and it's not

[00:46:14] then reword it a bit I find the whole idea of an AI checker very bizarre like fair enough if it

[00:46:20] in the beginning was using like Americanized spellings before you could say I want it to be UK

[00:46:25] spellings or whatever else like phraseology like it picks up on phrases like in addition to or I've

[00:46:32] spent a lot of time reworking writing to get it past an AI detector and simply because I don't it's not

[00:46:40] not because I'm yeah just trying to pass something off but it seems that what I've noticed is um and

[00:46:47] you you'll probably notice this if you've got if you've like got AI to generate writing before

[00:46:50] I'm sure there's probably some really elegant way of saying this but uh when it when you get

[00:46:56] sentences that like kind of set something up and then have a comma then you get then you get the

[00:47:00] rest of the sentence you get the punchline almost yeah like a preamble and I and I've noticed if

[00:47:06] you just kind of reword that so it just actually does a basic from A to B sentence yeah it'll then

[00:47:14] go not AI so there's some yeah something something about it kind of I don't know if the people who

[00:47:19] are using these who are making these tools are kind of in fact I think I read somewhere this is what

[00:47:23] they do they just produce a lot a lot of writing from AI yeah and put it in another AI and go right

[00:47:30] look for the common similarities it made me think you know everybody talks about how uh AI is becoming

[00:47:37] more and more human over time and it's going to be harder to tell but are we as humans going to become

[00:47:42] more and more AI in our writing style and who's going to influence who in that yeah we've been taught

[00:47:49] I mean again in schools we're taught exactly how to write exactly what how to express our ideas

[00:47:54] exactly how to um form what we need to write and actually when you look at um English teachers

[00:48:01] again are probably screaming at me right now but when you look at some of the best novels and books

[00:48:07] and writing out there they don't abide by a lot of those rules yeah I used to teach I used to teach

[00:48:12] English and I used to teach young people that actually breaking the rules is where you stand out

[00:48:19] like a one word sentence a one word sentence is a brilliant technique when you're writing just to go

[00:48:26] death full stop yeah it's the same with with like books for for five-year-olds six-year-olds if you look

[00:48:33] at what makes a good book and a best-selling book and those is is typically at the moment not the ones

[00:48:38] that are just like a standard book it's where the pages are being ripped or the crocodile is jumping

[00:48:42] out or they're they're like the book with no pictures is is is rethinking how these stories are

[00:48:49] written and how um books are not just the standard like front cover text back cover it's how we can

[00:48:55] we can change all that up dan see before we go right can we should ai content be labeled should it have

[00:49:06] like because we're in this world like it's only been around for a couple years where

[00:49:10] there we don't have the policies we don't have the legal frameworks we don't they're just not there

[00:49:16] like what should we be doing what should we be doing about that as a society like should there be a

[00:49:21] you know I know it's some a lot of places are like was this generated with ai but at the end of the day

[00:49:27] it's a checkbox you can take it or not it's such a tough question because I think it's such a deep gray

[00:49:32] area I know because I mean like as you in fact even as you were just asking that question there I was

[00:49:38] the example that popped into my head was like actually if you if you if you're somebody who

[00:49:43] produces music you've been using ai for decades absolutely yeah I I do a lot like I'm sure you

[00:49:50] guys do as well with this podcast and other things like there's there's normally a button in

[00:49:54] there somewhere that says level the music yeah that's that's ai that's that's so it's and I

[00:50:01] you don't get in music producers saying I partially used ai to level this track

[00:50:08] whatever it is but so I think there's so much gray area there and I yeah I don't because again

[00:50:16] like just in how I wrote the book I did use ai in various aspects now if I'd if I just got ai to

[00:50:23] write the book like without me having any really any intervention then I think there's probably a

[00:50:29] there's an authenticity issue there and maybe that should be labeled maybe maybe it should be

[00:50:36] um certainly videos that are pretending to be something they're not like a deep fake something

[00:50:41] like that yeah yeah yeah I think we've got to and I I tend to say this to schools and colleges when

[00:50:47] I'm working with them I'm like as much as it pains me you've got to draw the line in the sand somewhere

[00:50:53] because people need to be clear on what to expect from

[00:50:58] from content or from a procedure or whatever it is and so if you're going to go right well

[00:51:05] we've got to draw the the line in the sand here then I think that's okay I it's quite arbitrary but I

[00:51:11] think we probably need to do it somewhere where that is I don't know I don't think we had a decision

[00:51:17] either it's going to change by tomorrow the next day as well that line is going to shift as more and more

[00:51:22] tools come out as more and as the the AIs become more and more uh yeah yeah and it'll become

[00:51:30] it'll not be so obvious like actually we won't we won't be using tools necessarily to go

[00:51:36] create this for me it'll just be a tiny bit like you know like I suppose it's a bit like using

[00:51:41] grammarly now where yeah I'm writing a sentence and it pops up and goes you know what if you put that word

[00:51:45] over here it'll make a lot better sense and I'm like yep thank you click that button

[00:51:54] so when's it when's the book out Dan?

[00:51:56] 6th of January so 6th of January it'll be released on Amazon and in I think it goes out with Waterstones

[00:52:01] and other bookshops as well um amazing yeah it's called Infinite Education the four-step process to

[00:52:07] lead and change in the era of AI yeah infinite education you've got a little infinity symbol on

[00:52:13] the cover I've seen that as well I do yeah yeah and it's it's kind of again it's about it's not

[00:52:18] directly about AI but it's about going what kind of world is AI going to create really how do we start

[00:52:25] to rethink things and the first half the book is all the why and the second half of the book is is

[00:52:30] literally a four-step process of how an innovator in a in a in a college or school or a or a leader can

[00:52:38] get a group of people together and start doing this it's very there's a lot of practical exercises

[00:52:43] there and I wanted to make it as practical and as possible and it's kind of when I went into

[00:52:48] leadership in further education it's kind of the book I wish I had right yeah because I've used a

[00:52:53] lot of the things I had to learn organically and I kind of wish someone would give me this and went

[00:52:57] this is how you influence an executive team this is how you this is how you build a strategy and this

[00:53:03] is how you bring people along with you this is then how you align the organization on your message

[00:53:08] so it's like um so the four steps are scope shape influence align that's about how do you how do you

[00:53:15] build something new and then take everybody with you take people with you yeah right and the

[00:53:22] aieducator.io is your website yeah and if you want to know more about the book it's infinite

[00:53:26] education.ai um and if you there's a waitlist on there at the minute because it's not on amazon just

[00:53:32] yet and if you sign up to that you get a free bonus chapter on the release date nice i love that

[00:53:39] you used notebook lm at the bottom as well just to give a wee yeah deep dive into it and have we

[00:53:44] yes it's a whole book in there and got her to create a podcast and just put it on there just to give a

[00:53:48] bit of a teaser amazing love it really excited to read that 6th of january

[00:53:59] dan fitzpatrick thank you so much for joining us today i feel like we could probably talk for

[00:54:04] another hour at least and so we're gonna have to i mean things are moving so quickly we're gonna have

[00:54:10] to have another chat soon i think because yeah you know i'd love to hear all about your travels

[00:54:16] um and you know what people are saying in different parts of the world

[00:54:24] wow i feel like we could have just kept that conversation going as well thank you so much

[00:54:29] dan fitzpatrick for joining us today really excited um about the book as well um remember we are

[00:54:38] digitized.com is our web address um you can find out all about our courses our training our products

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